Kootenai Sheriff’s Deputies Overstepping Boundaries
Attn: Sheriff Rocky Watson, Kootenai County
My family and I were delighted to attend the North Idaho Fair today. My 3 year old daughter loves seeing all the animals and playing with the kids in the family fun center. I’m a rodeo fan myself, and I saw you out there at the opening with our other fine civil servants. Thank you for your service.
An hour after our arrival we were seated on the hay bales watching the kids play with the go-carts through the bale maze. As we stood up to leave I found myself, my wife and kids all surrounded by 5 sheriff deputies. They questioned me on if I was a law enforcement officer. Upon my answering that I was not, they informed me that there was a sign on the entrance of the fair that stated no firearms were allowed. They told me that I would need to exit the fair and secure my firearm in my vehicle, only then could I return.
As I’m not one to make a scene, especially since I’m with my family, I told him that I would comply. My daughter and I headed toward the exit together with two deputies following us. As I reached the gate I turned and asked the deputies if we were on public or private property. They told me it was public property. Even though I already knew that answer, I wanted to be sure that they were aware of the laws that they work to uphold.
He informed me that they personally didn’t have a problem, but since they had received calls regarding my carrying that they could ask me to leave. I willingly left and secured my weapon in my vehicle and returned to enjoy the rest of the evening with friends and family. After all, I could be right… but I could be tazed and right.
According to Senate Bill NO. 1441, which passed and became law in March of 2008, it is against the law for “any county, city, agency, board or any other political subdivision of this state to adopt or enforce any law, rule, regulation, or ordinance which regulates in any manner the sale, acquisition, transfer, ownership, possession, transportation, carrying or storage of firearms or any element relating to firearms and components thereof, including ammunition.” Further information on this bill can be obtained at http://www3.state.id.us/oasis/2008/S1441.html
I’m extremely disappointed that my right was not defended by the sheriff deputies as it is their sworn duty to do so. My rights do not come to an end when people around me feel uncomfortable with my expressing them. I hope you can understand my concern. I’d like to know that in the future I can exercise my right to carry the tools required to defend my loved ones and anyone in danger without fear of being accosted and expelled from public property.
If I am mistaken in my understanding of Idaho state law and my right to carry at the county fair, please let me know.
Thank you for your time, and I hope to hear back from you.
Chad Coleman
Kootenai County Constitution Party
http://kootenaicp.org
Response from Lt. Dan Soumas
Mr. Coleman,
I’m checking into your complaint to the Sheriff about the denial of your carry during the Fair. A couple of questions as I only have your email at this point. Were you intending to carry open or concealed? Did you pay to get into the Fair? If question # 2 sounds strange here is my reason. When you pay to get into an event you typically are agreeing to follow the rules that venue sets for that particular event. I will be checking the Fair rules, how they were posted and the law on this issue.
Thanks,
Lt. Dan Soumas
My Response to Lt. Dan Soumas
Thanks Lt. Soumas,
I was open carrying, and I purchased tickets for myself and my family to get in.
If paying to get into an event is my agreement to follow the rules that is understandable. My issue is when those rules violate my rights as provided by Senate Bill 1441 in this link – http://www3.state.id.us/oasis/2008/S1441.html
18-3302J (2) – Paraphrased
No county, city, agency, board or any other political subdivision of this state may adopt or enforce any rule which regulates in any manner the possession or carrying of firearms.
If indeed the fair rules state that no firearms are allowed, then the fairgrounds are in violation of my rights. I would like to know that your department is actively working to protect myself and others who abide by these laws. I would also like to see that particular sign removed, as well as any other such sign that is placed on public property (besides schools and courthouses as is written into law).
Thank you for your response and support with the matter.
–
Chad Coleman
Kootenai County Constitution Party
http://kootenaicp.org
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Update Sept. 1
I just emailed Rocky Watson directly with a copy of the complaint and a request for a meeting. I Blind Copied the Editor for the CDA Press. I’ll also be asking him about his stance on Oath Keepers (http://oathkeepers.org/oath/), as I’d like to know that he’ll stand up to any Federal Govt. bullying that may come to Kootenai County.
A Reponse from Lt Dan Soumas
Mr. Coleman,
I have spoken with the Sheriff. He has asked me to handle this issue at my level. As far as the “incident” at the Fairgrounds, the team that was on duty that day is currently off-duty until the latter half of this week. I won’t have an answer for you until after I speak with them and finish my research. Probably sometime early next week.
Thanks,
Lt. Dan Soumas
My Response
Hi Lt. Soumas,
I did some preliminary research. From the fair website, the fair board reports directly to the county commissioners.
http://www.northidahofair.com/fair%20board/index.html
From the county website (this is just a cursory search) here are some minutes from the board of commissioners.
Weekly Board Agenda PDF – Fairground Budget Meeting
As you can see at the bottom of the PDF, “fairgrounds budget meeting” is on the list. From other web searches I can see the county funds it and maintains it. The fair is sponsored by the county, so this places me within my rights to carry at the fair.
I will await your response after you’ve had the opportunity to speak with the team.
Also, am I to understand that I am unable to schedule a meeting with the Sheriff?
–
Chad Coleman
Kootenai County Constitution Party
http://kootenaicp.org
Response from Lt Dan Soumas
Mr. Coleman,
I’m aware who oversees, funds, and manages the Fairgrounds. I understand your argument and I am having some research conducted to see if we need to conduct business differently. I recognize this is an important issue to you, but I’ll still need until sometime next week. Yes, currently you are unable to schedule a meeting with the Sheriff on this matter. He has asked me to handle this at my level for now.
Thanks,
Lt. Dan Soumas
My Response
Thanks Lt. Soumas,
Yes, this issue is important to not only me, but to many law abiding citizens in the county.
As I understand that the Sheriff has placed you in charge of this particular incident, I would still like to arrange a meeting on some other issues that are not related to this incident.
What must one do in order to secure a face to face with the Sheriff?
–
Chad Coleman
Kootenai County Constitution Party
http://kootenaicp.org
September 12th
“Official” Response That Arrived in My Mailbox
Dear Mr. Coleman,
Upon receipt of your complaint last week regarding the Deputies asking you to return your weapon to your vehicle at the Kootenai County Fair, I reviewed the applicable Idaho Code and asked our legal staff to offer an opinion as this involved the Sheriff’s Office enforcing a Fair Board rule. As a result of that research, we agree that you do have the right to open carry on the County Fairgrounds despite the Fair rule to the contrary.
The Sheriff’s Department remains a strong supporter of citizen’s right to bear arms. We also recognize the responsibility that one assumes when they choose to open carry. Choosing to carry in a venue that would seem to most folks as out of context (for example the County Fair) will make some uncomfortable and generate calls to us from uninformed but concerned citizens. Those calls will at least require us to respond and visually verify the person is not in conflict with Idaho law. That will take away our resources from proactively looking for actual crime. The choice is obviously yours. Such is the irony of one man exercising his rights at that level.
I appreciate you taking the time to contact us on this issue. I apologize if you were inconvenienced in any way.
Sincerely,
Liutenant Dan Soumas
Patrol Division CommanderCC: Sheriff Rocky Watson
My Response Via Email
Lt. Soumas,
I received the letter in the mail today. I’m pretty disappointed in the department and this vague response.
As a citizen who OC’s, I’m fully aware of my assumed responsibility as well as the probability that folks might get uncomfortable with my doing so. And for some insight on why I OC, I’d like to see more folks carry openly as well as help the uninformed public feel a little more comfortable with the sight of it.
I find your comment regarding “places of context” very interesting, since folks also consider carrying a gun on a college or school campus to be “out of context”. Apparently what the public considers “out of context” doesn’t seem to have much affect on folks like Seung-Hui Cho, the shooter at Virginia Tech.
When calls go out, the Deputies could have “visually verified” that I was with my wife and children and in no way a suspicious or threatening looking character from a distance. Do you guys honestly think that bad guys Open Carry?
Or if the Deputies really felt the need to speak with me, one deputy could have approached me and discussed the matter. But having myself and my family surrounded by Deputies in a public show of force does not qualify as “visually verifying” a damn thing.
You also failed to address a couple of issues that I brought up in our discussion. Since you’ve stated that the Sheriff’s Department remains a strong supporter of citizen’s right to bear arms:
1. Will you instruct the Fair Board to remove the sign that is in violation of Idaho state law?
2. Will you be instructing the Deputies on this law, as well as better methods of dealing with the citizenry?
I hope you’ll have answers for those questions in your response.
Thank you for your time.
–
Chad Coleman
Kootenai County Constitution Party
http://kootenaicp.org
A Followup
Greetings Lt. Soumas,
A recent news article just cropped up at the Spokesman’s Review, that I thought you might find interesting.
A “criminally insane” patient committed to Eastern State Hospital in a murder case is at large at the Spokane County Interstate Fair, after slipping away from a group outing this afternoon, officials said.
According to Spokesman-Review archives, Paul slashed the throat of an elderly woman in Sunnyside, Wash., in 1987, soaked her body in gasoline to throw off search dogs and then buried the remains in the victim’s flower garden.
http://www.spokesman.com/stories/2009/sep/17/police-searching-fairgrounds-escapee/
Will you have a response to my previous email available any time soon?
–
Chad Coleman
Kootenai County Constitution Party
http://kootenaicp.org
Final Response from The Department, September 26th
Mr. Coleman,
I will make one final attempt to help you understand that we have resolved your concern.
The Department’s “official response” was very clear. After legal review “we agree that you do have the right to open carry on the County Fairgrounds despite the Fair rule to the contrary.” We have taken appropriate actions to ensure our personnel and other involved agencies are aware of the issue.
You have made many public statements on this incident. I think the time has come to set the record straight on your contact at the Fairgrounds:
First, at the time you were contacted the deputies were unaware of the far reaching changes to the law on open carry that came with IC 18-3302J, the code section that covers this area. They were acting on what they thought was a valid rule set by the Fair Board and Idaho statute prior to the 2008 change.
Second, you and your family were not “surrounded by five sheriff’s deputies”, but rather contacted by one sergeant while two others stood off to the side approximately 30 feet away which is a normal deputy safety procedure when dealing with an armed subject who is unknown to us in a crowded public venue.
Third, you were politely informed of the Fair rule, then politely asked to return your weapon to your vehicle and sent on your way to enjoy the Fair, which you did. The contact was so short and routine that you were not even asked for identification. In fact, had you not complained, we still wouldn’t know your identity. When you went to your vehicle to secure your weapon, the two deputies followed at a discreet distance. You contacted them briefly at the gate and that was it.
Your response indicated you were upset with my reference to the personal responsibility that comes with carrying a firearm. We both know based upon your previous history why I felt it necessary to include this in my response to you.
We have acknowledged your assessment of the new provisions of the law were correct and again appreciate you bringing this to our attention. Your complaint has been resolved and I must move on to my other duties as Patrol Division Commander.
Lieutenant Dan Soumas
My Final Response
Thanks for the response, Lieutenant.
It would have been beneficial for you to include more detail in your official response. It is not unreasonable for me to assume that you just tell a guy that he has a right to carry, and in the meanwhile leave signs in place and carry on business as usual. You’re idea of “very clear” differs greatly from mine, apparently.
Now this can be considered very clear.
“We have taken appropriate actions to ensure our personnel and other involved agencies are aware of the issue.”
Thank you.
As far as setting the record straight, I cannot blame the deputies for acting on what they have been trained to do. I can only blame the ignorant administration. In other words, I blame Sheriff Rocky Watson and whomever else is responsible for the proper training of the Deputies on protocol and the Idaho State Constitution. I can see it’s time that Kootenai County elects a more qualified individual who will follow through with their sworn oath.
It is not a surprise to me that the deputies would “church up” their report on the matter. My wife will testify as a witness that we were indeed “surrounded by five deputies”. They were about 2 feet out of arms length from us in all directions. There was no going in or out of that grouping, and 3 officers total wouldn’t be able to achieve that. I really do not need to lie about this, or stretch the truth. I have nothing to gain by doing so, but the deputies just might. I knew I should have pulled out the camera, as is always suggested by the OC advocacy groups I’m apart of. I won’t make that mistake in the future.
As far as being identified, I’m fairly certain that unless I’m in violation of the law, the deputies would have no authority to identify me. It has something to do with Amendment 4. You might want to double check that one with the Prosecutor’s office.
Well played, Lieutenant. I’m impressed. Let’s pull up my record from a couple years ago and throw in a pithy comment with it. We could go into a debate on tolerance levels, bring in a chemist, go over my sober discussion with the officer involved. But the law is the law, and I am guilty of breaking it for carrying concealed while having a beer with a friend from out of town. It was a poor decision, and a mistake that I have learned from. I’m aware of my past offense and despite the temptation you shouldn’t feel the need to pull it out as a “trump card”.
My complaint has been resolved, but it has also shed light on the entire department.
–
Chad Coleman
Kootenai County Constitution Party
http://kootenaicp.org
“Truth does not fear investigation.”
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Resources
- Idaho State Gun Laws Brochure
- SB 1441 (Which basically reinforces what is already law)
- Full Idaho Law on Firearms
16 Responses
Leave a Reply
Sounds like Lt. Soumas is gettin a little snarky. Haha.
Chad, I am amazed at the events which took place at the Fair.
I very much appreciate your exercising your right to carry your weapon and, personally,I would have been thrilled to have seen a private citizen doing so.
You have done your research and informed the sheriff’s department of what they need to know. Few people have done either and I am inspired by your effort.
I hope this serves to imform the county office holders, the sheriff and his staff and people in general of what they should already know about Constitutionally guraranteed rights and encroachments on our exercise of them by those who most certainly should know better and then take their oaths of office seriously.
Most unacceptable that Sheriff Watson will not see you !
Unless he has a most compelling reason and if so, he should
be able to follow through with an appointment with you at a later date.
I look forward to your future posts re. this matter.
Sincerely,
Mary Rutkowski
I think it is lame that law enforcement thinks that if some one other than them carries a firearm that it must be stopped. Especially open carry. Give me a break. Any one who open carries obviously has nothing to hide and certainly has no foul intentions with a weapon. They should be more worried about ones who hide the facts, and doesnt obey law. I would understand if lets say, an officer thought he noticed odd body language and perhaps an odd bulge under your clothing, and then investigated, or check for a concealed permit. Instead, they bothered you, wasted your family time, and allowed potential wolves to pass by unnoticed.
Sadly, Jonas.
This is absurd. Chad, you ought to run for Sheriff. These are the types of jokers that are really forcing our country down the drain.
Thanks for taking the time to do this. It is preferable to use the polite inquisitive method rather than the, in your face, arrest me and I’ll see you in court method.
lp
Chad, I just wanted to drop a line letting you know that you’re doing good work up there. I’ve run into more than a little trouble with open carrying here in Latah County (though not as much trouble as with rogue Moscow PD officers).
I may take issue with the Constitution Party as a libertarian but you’re doing a service keeping LEOs’ feet to the fire.
I will be writing in Chad Coleman for Sheriff next election. Sheriff Watson’s actions speak so loud … I can’t hear what he is saying … or not saying for that matter. Watson is a disgrace to this county and a coward for flanking worthy confrontation from a man who actually knows the laws.
Thank you everybody for your support. At this point, I’m expecting the Lt. to ignore me. We really do need to work at electing a Sheriff who is a good representative of this county. A Sheriff who adheres to his Constitutional position is a hard thing to find these days.
How convenient that the Spokane County Fairgrounds just had an insane killer escape on a group outing and is at large.
http://www.spokesman.com/stories/2009/sep/17/police-searching-fairgrounds-escapee/
I sent that on to the Lt. for his “fairgrounds out of context” remark.
I’m sorry ,but “out of context”? Nonsense. I don’t see where a “Man with gun” call would be a problem if the law enforcement officers know the law. Do officers respond to “black man in public” because that is “out of context” for north Idaho? Was there ANY indication of nefarious behaviour requiring a response?
When the call comes in “man with a gun”, they should ask “what is he doing?” ” He is petting a goat.” “Well that is legal, let us know if he starts waving it around,thanks.”
I think people in “law enforcement” should maybe know the law. Ignorance of the law is no excuse for THEM either.
By the way, has everyone noticed the “no firearms” signs at some of the boat docks in the area? Has anyone heard of any problems there?
Thank you Mr. Coleman for your efforts with this. I am a Kootenai resident, and I first read about this incident on a blog from a guy in Tennesee I think, so this story is getting around.
Greeting’s Brother Coleman! I appreciate your directness with the Sheriff. He needs to abide by the Constitution Period. He SHOULD BE REPLACED AT THE EARLIEST CONVENIENCE OF THE VOTERS.
Chad for Sherrif for 2010.He knows the law and lives by the law!
The reason someone like me who lives in Dallas,Texas is interested in Idaho news is cus Im thinking of relocating there. We cant Open Carry in TX, but the law states one exception…if you are standing on your own property! That didn’t stop one of my new neighbors recently moved in from California from having a California Twist of Her Undies and calling 911 to report me as “brandishing” a gun. And that didnt stop the local police, 3 squad cars full, from screeching up in front, pulling their guns, screaming at the top of their lungs, disarming me,and full body search. When they started a full interrogation, I refused to cooperate, told them I had a license to carry concealed weapon, and didnt need that license, I knew the Texas Gun Laws and could open carry on my own property. They left…immediately! They were some kind of Pissed Off, but they did leave.
I did the same thing you did,endless useless emails to the Chief of Police, and I got the same brushoff as you did.
So…just wanted you to know, this shit is going on everywhere in the country, not just Idaho. Ever since the damned Patriot Act was passed, all law enforcement everywhere think they now work for Homeland Security!?
Thank you, Thank you, Thank you.
Nice to know there are still a few MEN around in contrast to the limp-wristed swishy-washy metro-sexuals who commonly try to pass themselves off as such.
And to think, most of our lifeless, feckless, courage-less brothers are likewise decedents of the Norsemen. How sad. Must be something in the water.
Mr. Coleman
Thank you for standing up for your rights and our rights under the 2nd Amendment! Please consider joining Oath Keepers of Idaho and taking the their cause to the sheriff of your county.
Also thank you for supporting the Constitution Party!
You can join the Idaho Oath Keepers on line here: http://oathkeepers.ning.com/group/idaho
My state Constitution Party website if you are interested is http://www.constitutionpartync.com
Also please consider joining the national forum recently set up for discussion here: http://cparty.ning.com/
Thank you!