Meeting September 23rd
We’ll be having a Kootenai County Constitution party meeting this coming Wednesday at the Hayden Library. The meeting starts at 7:00pm. This meeting is open to members and the public. It will be an informal meeting and we’ll be discussing a few particular topics that are concerning citizens in north Idaho.
Here are driving directions to the Hayden Library.
Kootenai Sheriff’s Deputies Overstepping Boundaries
Attn: Sheriff Rocky Watson, Kootenai County
My family and I were delighted to attend the North Idaho Fair today. My 3 year old daughter loves seeing all the animals and playing with the kids in the family fun center. I’m a rodeo fan myself, and I saw you out there at the opening with our other fine civil servants. Thank you for your service.
An hour after our arrival we were seated on the hay bales watching the kids play with the go-carts through the bale maze. As we stood up to leave I found myself, my wife and kids all surrounded by 5 sheriff deputies. They questioned me on if I was a law enforcement officer. Upon my answering that I was not, they informed me that there was a sign on the entrance of the fair that stated no firearms were allowed. They told me that I would need to exit the fair and secure my firearm in my vehicle, only then could I return.
As I’m not one to make a scene, especially since I’m with my family, I told him that I would comply. My daughter and I headed toward the exit together with two deputies following us. As I reached the gate I turned and asked the deputies if we were on public or private property. They told me it was public property. Even though I already knew that answer, I wanted to be sure that they were aware of the laws that they work to uphold.
He informed me that they personally didn’t have a problem, but since they had received calls regarding my carrying that they could ask me to leave. I willingly left and secured my weapon in my vehicle and returned to enjoy the rest of the evening with friends and family. After all, I could be right… but I could be tazed and right.
According to Senate Bill NO. 1441, which passed and became law in March of 2008, it is against the law for “any county, city, agency, board or any other political subdivision of this state to adopt or enforce any law, rule, regulation, or ordinance which regulates in any manner the sale, acquisition, transfer, ownership, possession, transportation, carrying or storage of firearms or any element relating to firearms and components thereof, including ammunition.” Further information on this bill can be obtained at http://www3.state.id.us/oasis/2008/S1441.html
I’m extremely disappointed that my right was not defended by the sheriff deputies as it is their sworn duty to do so. My rights do not come to an end when people around me feel uncomfortable with my expressing them. I hope you can understand my concern. I’d like to know that in the future I can exercise my right to carry the tools required to defend my loved ones and anyone in danger without fear of being accosted and expelled from public property.
If I am mistaken in my understanding of Idaho state law and my right to carry at the county fair, please let me know.
Thank you for your time, and I hope to hear back from you.
Chad Coleman
Kootenai County Constitution Party
http://kootenaicp.org
Response from Lt. Dan Soumas
Mr. Coleman,
I’m checking into your complaint to the Sheriff about the denial of your carry during the Fair. A couple of questions as I only have your email at this point. Were you intending to carry open or concealed? Did you pay to get into the Fair? If question # 2 sounds strange here is my reason. When you pay to get into an event you typically are agreeing to follow the rules that venue sets for that particular event. I will be checking the Fair rules, how they were posted and the law on this issue.
Thanks,
Lt. Dan Soumas
My Response to Lt. Dan Soumas
Thanks Lt. Soumas,
I was open carrying, and I purchased tickets for myself and my family to get in.
If paying to get into an event is my agreement to follow the rules that is understandable. My issue is when those rules violate my rights as provided by Senate Bill 1441 in this link – http://www3.state.id.us/oasis/2008/S1441.html
18-3302J (2) – Paraphrased
No county, city, agency, board or any other political subdivision of this state may adopt or enforce any rule which regulates in any manner the possession or carrying of firearms.
If indeed the fair rules state that no firearms are allowed, then the fairgrounds are in violation of my rights. I would like to know that your department is actively working to protect myself and others who abide by these laws. I would also like to see that particular sign removed, as well as any other such sign that is placed on public property (besides schools and courthouses as is written into law).
Thank you for your response and support with the matter.
–
Chad Coleman
Kootenai County Constitution Party
http://kootenaicp.org
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Update Sept. 1
I just emailed Rocky Watson directly with a copy of the complaint and a request for a meeting. I Blind Copied the Editor for the CDA Press. I’ll also be asking him about his stance on Oath Keepers (http://oathkeepers.org/oath/), as I’d like to know that he’ll stand up to any Federal Govt. bullying that may come to Kootenai County.
A Reponse from Lt Dan Soumas
Mr. Coleman,
I have spoken with the Sheriff. He has asked me to handle this issue at my level. As far as the “incident” at the Fairgrounds, the team that was on duty that day is currently off-duty until the latter half of this week. I won’t have an answer for you until after I speak with them and finish my research. Probably sometime early next week.
Thanks,
Lt. Dan Soumas
My Response
Hi Lt. Soumas,
I did some preliminary research. From the fair website, the fair board reports directly to the county commissioners.
http://www.northidahofair.com/fair%20board/index.html
From the county website (this is just a cursory search) here are some minutes from the board of commissioners.
Weekly Board Agenda PDF – Fairground Budget Meeting
As you can see at the bottom of the PDF, “fairgrounds budget meeting” is on the list. From other web searches I can see the county funds it and maintains it. The fair is sponsored by the county, so this places me within my rights to carry at the fair.
I will await your response after you’ve had the opportunity to speak with the team.
Also, am I to understand that I am unable to schedule a meeting with the Sheriff?
–
Chad Coleman
Kootenai County Constitution Party
http://kootenaicp.org
Response from Lt Dan Soumas
Mr. Coleman,
I’m aware who oversees, funds, and manages the Fairgrounds. I understand your argument and I am having some research conducted to see if we need to conduct business differently. I recognize this is an important issue to you, but I’ll still need until sometime next week. Yes, currently you are unable to schedule a meeting with the Sheriff on this matter. He has asked me to handle this at my level for now.
Thanks,
Lt. Dan Soumas
My Response
Thanks Lt. Soumas,
Yes, this issue is important to not only me, but to many law abiding citizens in the county.
As I understand that the Sheriff has placed you in charge of this particular incident, I would still like to arrange a meeting on some other issues that are not related to this incident.
What must one do in order to secure a face to face with the Sheriff?
–
Chad Coleman
Kootenai County Constitution Party
http://kootenaicp.org
September 12th
“Official” Response That Arrived in My Mailbox
Dear Mr. Coleman,
Upon receipt of your complaint last week regarding the Deputies asking you to return your weapon to your vehicle at the Kootenai County Fair, I reviewed the applicable Idaho Code and asked our legal staff to offer an opinion as this involved the Sheriff’s Office enforcing a Fair Board rule. As a result of that research, we agree that you do have the right to open carry on the County Fairgrounds despite the Fair rule to the contrary.
The Sheriff’s Department remains a strong supporter of citizen’s right to bear arms. We also recognize the responsibility that one assumes when they choose to open carry. Choosing to carry in a venue that would seem to most folks as out of context (for example the County Fair) will make some uncomfortable and generate calls to us from uninformed but concerned citizens. Those calls will at least require us to respond and visually verify the person is not in conflict with Idaho law. That will take away our resources from proactively looking for actual crime. The choice is obviously yours. Such is the irony of one man exercising his rights at that level.
I appreciate you taking the time to contact us on this issue. I apologize if you were inconvenienced in any way.
Sincerely,
Liutenant Dan Soumas
Patrol Division CommanderCC: Sheriff Rocky Watson
My Response Via Email
Lt. Soumas,
I received the letter in the mail today. I’m pretty disappointed in the department and this vague response.
As a citizen who OC’s, I’m fully aware of my assumed responsibility as well as the probability that folks might get uncomfortable with my doing so. And for some insight on why I OC, I’d like to see more folks carry openly as well as help the uninformed public feel a little more comfortable with the sight of it.
I find your comment regarding “places of context” very interesting, since folks also consider carrying a gun on a college or school campus to be “out of context”. Apparently what the public considers “out of context” doesn’t seem to have much affect on folks like Seung-Hui Cho, the shooter at Virginia Tech.
When calls go out, the Deputies could have “visually verified” that I was with my wife and children and in no way a suspicious or threatening looking character from a distance. Do you guys honestly think that bad guys Open Carry?
Or if the Deputies really felt the need to speak with me, one deputy could have approached me and discussed the matter. But having myself and my family surrounded by Deputies in a public show of force does not qualify as “visually verifying” a damn thing.
You also failed to address a couple of issues that I brought up in our discussion. Since you’ve stated that the Sheriff’s Department remains a strong supporter of citizen’s right to bear arms:
1. Will you instruct the Fair Board to remove the sign that is in violation of Idaho state law?
2. Will you be instructing the Deputies on this law, as well as better methods of dealing with the citizenry?
I hope you’ll have answers for those questions in your response.
Thank you for your time.
–
Chad Coleman
Kootenai County Constitution Party
http://kootenaicp.org
A Followup
Greetings Lt. Soumas,
A recent news article just cropped up at the Spokesman’s Review, that I thought you might find interesting.
A “criminally insane” patient committed to Eastern State Hospital in a murder case is at large at the Spokane County Interstate Fair, after slipping away from a group outing this afternoon, officials said.
According to Spokesman-Review archives, Paul slashed the throat of an elderly woman in Sunnyside, Wash., in 1987, soaked her body in gasoline to throw off search dogs and then buried the remains in the victim’s flower garden.
http://www.spokesman.com/stories/2009/sep/17/police-searching-fairgrounds-escapee/
Will you have a response to my previous email available any time soon?
–
Chad Coleman
Kootenai County Constitution Party
http://kootenaicp.org
Final Response from The Department, September 26th
Mr. Coleman,
I will make one final attempt to help you understand that we have resolved your concern.
The Department’s “official response” was very clear. After legal review “we agree that you do have the right to open carry on the County Fairgrounds despite the Fair rule to the contrary.” We have taken appropriate actions to ensure our personnel and other involved agencies are aware of the issue.
You have made many public statements on this incident. I think the time has come to set the record straight on your contact at the Fairgrounds:
First, at the time you were contacted the deputies were unaware of the far reaching changes to the law on open carry that came with IC 18-3302J, the code section that covers this area. They were acting on what they thought was a valid rule set by the Fair Board and Idaho statute prior to the 2008 change.
Second, you and your family were not “surrounded by five sheriff’s deputies”, but rather contacted by one sergeant while two others stood off to the side approximately 30 feet away which is a normal deputy safety procedure when dealing with an armed subject who is unknown to us in a crowded public venue.
Third, you were politely informed of the Fair rule, then politely asked to return your weapon to your vehicle and sent on your way to enjoy the Fair, which you did. The contact was so short and routine that you were not even asked for identification. In fact, had you not complained, we still wouldn’t know your identity. When you went to your vehicle to secure your weapon, the two deputies followed at a discreet distance. You contacted them briefly at the gate and that was it.
Your response indicated you were upset with my reference to the personal responsibility that comes with carrying a firearm. We both know based upon your previous history why I felt it necessary to include this in my response to you.
We have acknowledged your assessment of the new provisions of the law were correct and again appreciate you bringing this to our attention. Your complaint has been resolved and I must move on to my other duties as Patrol Division Commander.
Lieutenant Dan Soumas
My Final Response
Thanks for the response, Lieutenant.
It would have been beneficial for you to include more detail in your official response. It is not unreasonable for me to assume that you just tell a guy that he has a right to carry, and in the meanwhile leave signs in place and carry on business as usual. You’re idea of “very clear” differs greatly from mine, apparently.
Now this can be considered very clear.
“We have taken appropriate actions to ensure our personnel and other involved agencies are aware of the issue.”
Thank you.
As far as setting the record straight, I cannot blame the deputies for acting on what they have been trained to do. I can only blame the ignorant administration. In other words, I blame Sheriff Rocky Watson and whomever else is responsible for the proper training of the Deputies on protocol and the Idaho State Constitution. I can see it’s time that Kootenai County elects a more qualified individual who will follow through with their sworn oath.
It is not a surprise to me that the deputies would “church up” their report on the matter. My wife will testify as a witness that we were indeed “surrounded by five deputies”. They were about 2 feet out of arms length from us in all directions. There was no going in or out of that grouping, and 3 officers total wouldn’t be able to achieve that. I really do not need to lie about this, or stretch the truth. I have nothing to gain by doing so, but the deputies just might. I knew I should have pulled out the camera, as is always suggested by the OC advocacy groups I’m apart of. I won’t make that mistake in the future.
As far as being identified, I’m fairly certain that unless I’m in violation of the law, the deputies would have no authority to identify me. It has something to do with Amendment 4. You might want to double check that one with the Prosecutor’s office.
Well played, Lieutenant. I’m impressed. Let’s pull up my record from a couple years ago and throw in a pithy comment with it. We could go into a debate on tolerance levels, bring in a chemist, go over my sober discussion with the officer involved. But the law is the law, and I am guilty of breaking it for carrying concealed while having a beer with a friend from out of town. It was a poor decision, and a mistake that I have learned from. I’m aware of my past offense and despite the temptation you shouldn’t feel the need to pull it out as a “trump card”.
My complaint has been resolved, but it has also shed light on the entire department.
–
Chad Coleman
Kootenai County Constitution Party
http://kootenaicp.org
“Truth does not fear investigation.”
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Resources
- Idaho State Gun Laws Brochure
- SB 1441 (Which basically reinforces what is already law)
- Full Idaho Law on Firearms
